Ennie Lim: How Empathy Can Improve the Workplace

Jennifer Tescher:
我今天的客人Ennie Lim是一位令人耳目一新的金融科技企业家，她将自己的财务困难的个人历史转变为一家提供贷款，金融素养和金融教练计划的金融健康公司。作为Honeybee的首席执行官和联合创始人，Ennie将自己的全部自我带到了她的公司中，愿意分享她的故事，以说服雇主可以在员工的财务生活中发挥积极作用。

Ennie，欢迎到处出现。

Ennie Lim:
Thanks for having me.

Jennifer Tescher:
Ennie，您是Honeybee的创始人兼首席执行官。告诉我们一些有关您的公司及其运作方式的信息。让我们从那里开始。

Ennie Lim:
伟大的。好吧，您和您在财务健康网络的团队非常了解这个问题。雷竞技最新网址经济不平等已经存在于大流行之前，因此我想强调一些问题以及为什么要做我们做的事情，但是大流行的真正做到的是加速了获得更好的财务工具的需求。我们开始看到雇主意识到这已经不再是一个好了，但是必须拥有额外的财务保健或任何财务健康福利，以保留和吸引该人才，尤其是在这个紧张的劳动力市场中。

在Honeybee，我们看到了雇主购买行为的巨大转变，因为每个行业都只是试图跟上吸引人才并争夺他们的行为。我们成为其保留和员工敬业度策略的真正组成部分。

What we do at HoneyBee and our goal is to ensure that every working American can get free and equal access to financial tools to better themselves and their family. We make that possible by providing no-cost rainy day funds. That means no interest, no late fees, no subscription, no tipping and unlimited access to financial therapy.

We treat financial therapy the same way like we would treat mental health. One in five mental health issues are related to money concerns. When you’re dealing with mental health, you can read up online about ways to treat yourself, but you really can’t compare getting that one-on-one therapy session and it could be life changing for so many people. We look at financial therapy the exact same way, and we should treat financial health that same way. When someone’s overwhelmed with their finances, like I was five years ago after my divorce…

Speaking to a financial therapist, would’ve made really the world of a difference for me, and I know it would’ve made a huge difference for my mom that was the sole breadwinner for a household of five when she was struggling to get by. That’s what we do in a nutshell, and we also have our Honey Academy Program. We put these educational webinars together for employees and their families and their kids to attend some of these webinars. We customize that based on employers. Of course, all of this is paid by the employer and is 100% free access for employees.

Jennifer Tescher:
Wow. You’ve given us so much to talk about, Ennie. As some of our listeners might know, HoneyBee was part of the Financial Health Network’s accelerator, part of the Financial Solutions Lab, so I’ve gotten to watch HoneyBee grow and develop from a pretty early moment in time.

我f I remember correctly, I feel like your initial concept was enabling employees to take out loans against their outstanding vacation time, like trying to figure out what are assets that even low-wage workers have that they might be able to leverage. Now, clearly, similar idea, but you’ve pivoted in a whole host of different ways based on what you’ve learned in the market. Talk a little bit about how you got from that original idea to here and also tell us where the name HoneyBee comes from.

Ennie Lim:
绝对地。好吧，我们已有一段时间已经成为财务健康网络的一部分，成为该网络的一部分真是太神奇了。雷竞技最新网址您已经看到了Honeybee的不同迭代。我将从honeybee开始，名字。这个名字来自您将蜜蜂视为昆虫，它们确实是生态系统的关键昆虫。他们带来了带来健康的产品。我们必须找到方法来保护这些蜜蜂免受环境的侵害，并且我们必须像保护我们每天使用的许多产品一样保护美国人。

Jennifer Tescher:
我喜欢那个。工人，工人蜜蜂，蜜蜂，喜欢它。

Ennie Lim:
Exactly. HoneyBee has lived through a few key pivots. Statistically, I think about 55% of Americans have millions of paid vacation that are left on the table every year. US companies are carrying about $300 billion in liability for all of that unused PTO that sits on their balance sheet. Those are assets that working Americans own. HoneyBee wanted to leverage that PTO to provide access to credit that people… Especially for people that need it most.

Now, try and repeat that to HR. Although it’s great in theory, and I still think it’s a super, super genius idea, it was unbelievably difficult to sell to HR. There were so many questions from legal and labor laws… We did successfully sign about 10 companies when we started, but you can imagine all of those questions made it a very lengthy sales cycle.

Right before the pandemic, we wanted to ensure that we changed that model and it was going to be a proof case of whether employers were going to pay for it, during one of the most like challenging times that the world has ever seen, to ensure that their workforce had 100% free access to the tools they needed.

我知道有很多金融科技公司为雇主提供免费解决方案，但现实是有人必须支付这些费用。我确实遇到了这份Finhealth报告，即金融健康网络刚刚发布，您看到脆弱家庭支付了约25雷竞技最新网址50亿美元的日常金融服务费用。如果我们能找出他们不必为任何东西付款的方式……从依靠它的人群中赚取收入并不得不永久借用的收入永远不会感到正确。这就是为什么我们

Jennifer Tescher:
现在，为什么要雇主？告诉我为什么雇主。从Honeybee的一开始，您对您来说是一致的。为什么在这里很重要？您的业​​务模型转移工作了吗？这对企业来说是一个有用的转变吗？

Ennie Lim:
Yes, I’ll answer that question first. Thankfully, we’re still around, and yes, it did work. I think we’re almost at over 60 company now. The proof case that like employers need to bulk up their benefits… They’re already paying for things like snacks. If you just kind of put that and budgeted a small fee to cover your employees’ financial wellness, it would make the world of a difference for them. Luckily, that pivot did work. We weren’t sure when we started and when the pandemic happened, but I’m glad that we’re starting to see that shift in employers buying behavior.

为什么雇主?我认为当我第一次开始…我的有限公司-founder, Benny, who you know him pretty well, his family used to own restaurants. Every time an employee was faced with an emergency, his dad would find himself lending money to the employees. My mom experienced it first hand because she always relied on a loan that she would get from her boss as well. Just talking to different industries when we first started, we were starting to realize that it was pretty common within the workplace, but no one really talked about it.

We came across employers that were like, “Yeah, I do lend employees money, but it really depends on if they’re crying or not.” There was no structure in place and no real way to collect that money back because it’s extremely awkward between employers and employees when you have to collect that money back from your employees.

我们知道，有机会通过雇主渠道解决这个问题，然后更是如此，更是如此，雇主涵盖了该问题，雇员可以自由访问。他们更加参与劳动力，绝对会更忠诚。这就是为什么我们绝对是当今保留和参与策略的组成部分的原因。

Jennifer Tescher:
You mentioned at the beginning of our conversation that COVID has obviously driven significant demand from employers. Talent is so hard to come by right now. That, plus employers really seeing up close and personal the financial challenges that people have every day and how it can get in the way of work. I’m wondering if there are certain sectors, certain kinds of employers or certain sectors of the economy where an employee wellness solution seems to be a better fit or where the HR professionals and, frankly, the C-suite has a greater appreciation and understanding of the benefit.

Ennie Lim:
When we started, we started with nonprofit sectors, and there was definitely a huge need with nonprofit sectors. We started expanding. The way we see it is there’s almost seven out of 10 Americans that live paycheck to paycheck. You can imagine how many people need it. The one industry that we didn’t focus as much on was probably the high paying tech industry. With that as an exception, we looked at all the other industries.

Today, we’re working with a lot of distribution center, a lot of nonprofits. You have museums. We have schools, healthcare, utilities, water utilities, waste utilities. If you focus on low to middle-income workers in America, which is, I think, roughly about 87 million Americans that fall into that sector, that is that’s a massive market. That’s how we started. Then we started with different industries, but now we’re definitely looking at regions as we break up our sales team.

Jennifer Tescher:
知道了。您已经使用了几年了，我很好奇，您从使用您的平台的实际工人那里学到了什么。您学到的有什么令人惊讶的吗？人们是否有任何故事与您分享有关产品在生活中所产生的差异的故事？

Ennie Lim:
绝对地。我们确实学到了一件事，我认为我们一开始就知道这一点……通过金融健康网络，我们必须与圣路易斯的华盛顿大学合作，从用户那里收集数据。雷竞技最新网址结果确实令人惊讶，我们89％的用户是有色人种，主要是女性。我认为我们一直都知道这一点，但是看到黑人和白色确实在说明，因为我们能够减少工作场所的财务素养差距，并使人们获得信誉。

Some of those stories we hear, I wouldn’t say they’re surprising, but I think that’s what keeps me going is listening to these stories. I would get calls with these users sometimes because I think those are really meaningful stories that we have to constantly share publicly and for our team. At the end of every application, there’s a little section where they can put a note for HR. I think it’s really important to send these notes to HR because they are the ones implementing this and they need to know that what they’ve done is really valuable for the people that are using it.

At the beginning of COVID, we saw kids were moving to virtual learning. We had a single mom that relied on meals that were provided for her daughter at school. Like one in six Americans, she started going to a food bank. She used the HoneyBee funds to pay for internet for the first time and for her daughter to get a computer, which is something they never had to do before.

We had a healthcare worker, she doesn’t have the luxury to work from home, like so many of us. She had to commute about two hours to work every day. This had happened before HoneyBee was implemented, but her car broke down. Before she had HoneyBee, she missed a week of work because she couldn’t figure out how to get cash for her car repair. Unfortunately, as a last resort ended going to a payday lender, paying about 500% in interest. In addition to that, you talk about it trickling into the workplace. Because she had missed an entire week of work, her colleagues had to cover her shift and do overtime.

然后，您看着她有Honeybee时，她立即能够获得所需的资金，没有提出任何问题。我们的金融治疗师还帮助她节省了更好的二手车。我认为这些是我们不断听到的一些故事。我们认为，获得该无成本贷款很重要。起初，他们就像：“什么……这太好了，无法实现。为什么这是免费的？”但是，为了在财务上与他们合作，以实现其财务目标，他们确实需要该教育作品。我认为这是我们提供的关键，也是我们所提供的重要组成部分。

Jennifer Tescher:
我在这谈话多少公关oduct, the concept, the way you think about financial therapy… I’ve never heard anyone use that framing before. Super interesting. All of that really comes out of your own lived and personal experience. I think one of the things that’s really unique about you is your authenticity. You’re willing to talk about those experiences. I wonder if you could tell us a little bit more about the story that you shared earlier about the challenges that you faced after your own divorce and if you can tell us more about how that led to the creation of HoneyBee.

Ennie Lim:
Well, first of all, thank you. That means a lot. I know I’m very transparent about my background and my setbacks. When we started HoneyBee, that was definitely not the case. I was embarrassed to talk about my setbacks. While we launched, I was living in my parents’ basement out of necessity because I couldn’t get approved for any apartment because the divorce had affected my credit.

You hit a new low in your mid 30s when your mom gives you money to buy groceries, but somehow, solving one of the most fundamental problems in the US still seemed like a really great idea. When we started, I was cold calling a lot of employers. I would even show up at distribution centers completely unannounced, but there was one pivotal meeting that really changed my perspective.

那是这一家公司。它实际上是湾区的城市。他们已经同意亲自见面。我记得房间里大约有五个人。其中一些包括人力资源经理，董事，金融负责人。我像一开始一样投她的蜜蜂。一个人说：“我们的员工看起来不需要这一点。”这就是真正引起我的原因。我认为那是我的AHA时刻，因为我停了下来，我问她是否看起来像是需要经济帮助的人。

There was this awkward silence, but at that moment, I decided I was going to share about my financial setback. The last thing I said to them was that they should never assume that people doesn’t need access to financial help when most of America lives paycheck to paycheck.不用说，我从未签过该客户，但是那次会议的一名妇女之后与我联系，并感谢我如此透明。她自己经历了离婚，并遇到了经济困难。不幸的是，她无法分享那天的经验。

然后，这只是我的目的，始终能够通过真正鼓励人们对挫折的挫折，尤其是在C级别的挫折，使在工作场所中获得财务帮助的机会。这确实嵌入了我们今天的文化中，不仅是个人理财，而且确实创造了一个安全的地方，人们可以开放，分享脆弱性并互相依靠以克服挑战。从那以后，我对自己的斗争一直很透明。有时会使人们感到不舒服。我看过投资者，例如“哦，这就像夸张”，但这就是事实。我f people had more empathy, I really do feel the world would be a better place.

Jennifer Tescher:
我couldn’t agree with you more. What’s so interesting about your being transparent and using yourself as an example of the need… lots of founders have stories that somehow connect to the purpose of their product, but I think one of the other reasons why your sharing is particularly brave is because of the additional burden or challenge that I’m guessing you face as a woman in fintech. I don’t have to tell you about all of the stories of women founders who just have a way tougher time raising money, whose ideas are often scoffed at, laughed at by male investors.

从某种意义上说，分享这个故事可能会涉及一些负面刻板印象，我认为这可能会给女性带来挑战。谈论更多关于您如何作为女性创始人导航这个世界的信息。我的意思是，您只是Inc最具创新性的女性创始人。显然，您正在做正确的事，但是您必须有意地对此进行过努力。

Ennie Lim:
Yeah, absolutely. I think like the barriers to entry, especially in fintech, is definitely high. As you know, the space is highly regulated. Not only is FinTech very much a boys club, but venture capital is still heavily male dominated. I like to think of it a lot like a meritocracy. They invest in people very similar to them. They will stick with their existing networks.

风投公司正在招聘很多女同事我saw in my last fundraising round, but the reality is only about 12% of those decision makers at VC firms are women and even less so women of color. I think a big part of this journey is I’ve learned to accept rejection gracefully.我feel like women in general will always have to deal with more challenges and gender biases, not just in fintech or tech.

我t happens every industry.That’s really frustrating to read, sports, entertainment. There’s clearly so much work to be done, but I think a big part of my goal is that as I’m going through this journey, I do want to make it easier for someone after me that has to go through this. Whenever I see women in fintech or new entrepreneurs, I will 100% always spend the time to like, “If you have any questions, if you need any help, please let me know,” because why do we have to make it hard for every everyone?

我had this conversation over the whole holidays with my family, and I think about my twin nieces. If I could make it easier for someone like them when they grow up and hopefully they become an entrepreneur one day, the journey will just be a lot easier for them. I would actually like to ask you that same question. You’re a highly respected leader in a very male-dominated space. Have you faced similar challenges and how have you overcome them?

Jennifer Tescher:
Well, this is a good example of how you are successful because I’ve never had a guest turn the microphone on me. I love that. I think we probably have a little bit of a generational difference, you and I. I grew up at a time where women sort of had to wear the big shoulder pads in their suit jackets that looked like male clothing to demonstrate that they could be taken seriously, but it was also a time when we were taught that women could have it all. Women could be in the workplace and make a difference in their careers and have children and juggle it all somehow. It would all work out.

我think it didn’t take very long to see that that wasn’t exactly true. While I have deep appreciation for all of the women who came before me and who paved the trail that enabled me to really be able to do what I wanted to do, it certainly hasn’t been easy. Like you, where we talked about both being a woman leader in finance and fintech, but also sharing things about your personal experience that may be, in some cases, negatively associated with being a woman, I run a nonprofit organization that has a mission. There’s also a stereotype associated with that.

我经常被视为做得好。这就是我一直关注的事情是确保我受到认真对待，并认真对待工作和任务。这不仅是一个好主意，而且作为一个真正影响大多数美国人生活的游戏规则改变者，并将影响与我们合作的公司和组织的业务。听起来并不是越来越容易，但这听起来确实是我们至少能够以更全面的方式谈论和承认的东西。所以我真的很感谢这个问题。

Ennie Lim:
感谢您分享。我think it’s so interesting when you talk about impact focus because we’re a for profit, but we are definitely impact focused and there is negative connotation, especially when you’re pitching to investors, because they’re like, “Well, we want to make a lot of profit. How are we going to do that?” I’ve had so many pitches and investors like, “We don’t like the fact that it’s too impact focused.”

我started removing… catering it to my audience. Sometimes I would remove that from my pitch that we were so mission driven and impact focused, focused more on the number and the growth and the margins. It’s very interesting because I had to cater to that audience, but it is interesting that mentioned that.

Jennifer Tescher:
我think in the social impact world, wherever one is on the spectrum in terms of mission and margin, it’s all about balancing the idea of tailoring one’s message to the audience while, at the same time, not losing sight of what really matters. I think that is one of the most challenging things that the founders that I think we work with through the Financial Solutions Lab face. All of them are part of our accelerator because they, in some way, are connected to a broader mission. They’re also all trying to make money doing it.

我们从根本上相信，人们可以同时做这两个事情。尽管世界上有很多动作朝着这个想法发展，尤其是在专注于回报并专注于财务上的人们，但很难使这种情况不必有任何权衡。

Ennie Lim:
绝对地。

Jennifer Tescher:
恩妮，告诉我今年我们对Honeybee的期望。当您谈论这件事时，很想听到您反思自己认为雇主对金融健康解决方案的热情将会发生的事情，正如上帝愿意的那样，大流行充满希望，希望能开始退缩。您是否完全担心这会像锅中的闪光灯一样？

Ennie Lim:
我’ll answer that first question. 2022, I truly believe… And I know every founder says this every year, but it will be a pivotal moment for us this year. We’re building a lot of strong partnership with companies that are mission aligned. We have extremely loyal customers. We’re finding that companies are seeing that importance in bulking up their financial wellness benefit in order to compete effectively. I think a big part is… What I’m most proud of, of everything we’ve done, is really building a strong culture even as a fully remote team.

我们确实有一支令人难以置信的团队，具有帮助我们的技能和野心，以呈指数成倍增长。我们为我们走了多远而感到自豪。建立一个专注于任务的团队非常困难。我认为这样的就是我们成功地做得很好。

The second question to that is what we’re expecting from employers. We did see that shift when COVID happened and one in five households was losing an income earner. Employers definitely saw how important it was because employees were affected when hours were decreased, they were being furloughed. That was early 2020. Then after that you saw this race for talent.

然后你必须看到像亚马逊这样的公司和焦油get kind of lead the way because that’s what triggers employers. They’re like, “Well, we don’t want all our employees being taken up by all these large companies.” Then I know that… You know it as well through the worker initiative that you work with multiple large companies. They have to lead the way and they’re already doing that.

您将看到更多这些较大的公司将这些财务健康的收益视为最前沿，每个人都将开始遵循。我认为像401K 40年前一样，可能对许多雇主似乎很疯狂，例如“我们为什么要为此付出代价？我们为什么要投资于此？我们为什么要匹配？”但这只是当今每个包装的一部分，可以投资您员工的退休储蓄并在退休时帮助他们。我敢肯定，很多员工认为这太疯狂了，但是我认为我们看到越来越多的员工，雇主开始意识到这有多重要。

My hope is that… We have a lot of large companies in our pipeline and they are the ones that will lead the way. I think that’s why our focus is like really looking at these large companies because the more they lead the way, the easier it’ll be for mid-market companies and smaller companies to bring it on.

Jennifer Tescher:
只是成为标准实践。

Ennie Lim:
对，就是这样。

Jennifer Tescher:
Well, Ennie, best of luck to you and the HoneyBee team in 2022. Thank you for joining me on EMERGE Everywhere.

Ennie Lim:
Thank you so much, Jennifer. It’s always a pleasure to see you.